Comments on: Another “Obstacle for Women in the IT Industry” http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/ ... taking over the world like we always do! Sun, 12 Oct 2008 02:32:31 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Fred http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-746 Fred Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:49:37 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-746 biggest issue is the lack of a penis... biggest issue is the lack of a penis…

]]> By: zhasper http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-745 zhasper Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:16:45 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-745 <mode=dirty_pedant> <i>where the obstacle in question is apparently how women sometimes respond to men like they are trying to pick them up</i> “they” and “them” here are ambiguous. I think you mean “women sometimes respond to mine like the men are trying to pick the women up”? I initially read it the other way around </mode> <mode=dirty_pedant>

where the obstacle in question is apparently how women sometimes respond to men like they are trying to pick them up

“they” and “them” here are ambiguous. I think you mean “women sometimes respond to mine like the men are trying to pick the women up”? I initially read it the other way around

</mode>

]]> By: Mikey http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-743 Mikey Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:44:02 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-743 I had a very brief chat at the Linux Conf Au Professional Delegates Networking Session (whew) with Pia around this topic. I was encouraged by what I saw as an increase in the numbers of female participants and by a generally high level of consideration for others shown by everyone there. In short, the gender imbalance was being addressed and the guys were behaving themselves. By an improbable coincidence, my male colleague and I departed the venue shortly after, and found ourselves in the company of two young women who happened to be conference speakers. Amelia and Kate were two thirds of "Tux's Angels" and both experts on system penetration who immediately impressed us with their good humour and intellect. Andy and I both expressed our regret at not having seen their conference presentation (though I have seen the video now - they rock!) but we all enjoyed a few minutes of respectful, civilised conversation. My point is that bad behaviour is perpetrated by individuals and not by male geeks in general. I know an awful lot of male geeks, and as a class I believe that those I know are more considerate people than the broader male population. Having rambled from pillar to post, I'll just add that the signs are good on the gender front. More women at LCA is definitely a good thing. Here's hoping that as a community we can encourage all interested people to be involved and do what we can to make all of them feel comfortable. I had a very brief chat at the Linux Conf Au Professional Delegates Networking Session (whew) with Pia around this topic. I was encouraged by what I saw as an increase in the numbers of female participants and by a generally high level of consideration for others shown by everyone there. In short, the gender imbalance was being addressed and the guys were behaving themselves.

By an improbable coincidence, my male colleague and I departed the venue shortly after, and found ourselves in the company of two young women who happened to be conference speakers. Amelia and Kate were two thirds of “Tux’s Angels” and both experts on system penetration who immediately impressed us with their good humour and intellect. Andy and I both expressed our regret at not having seen their conference presentation (though I have seen the video now - they rock!) but we all enjoyed a few minutes of respectful, civilised conversation.

My point is that bad behaviour is perpetrated by individuals and not by male geeks in general. I know an awful lot of male geeks, and as a class I believe that those I know are more considerate people than the broader male population.

Having rambled from pillar to post, I’ll just add that the signs are good on the gender front. More women at LCA is definitely a good thing. Here’s hoping that as a community we can encourage all interested people to be involved and do what we can to make all of them feel comfortable.

]]> By: Leon Brooks http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-741 Leon Brooks Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:32:38 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-741 Paul, my ESHO of the TTMGR is that the list is more extensive than we can possibly imagine, yet things evidently happen anyway so the obvious conclusion is that not everything will go wrong. No pain, no gain - no guts, no glory - etc. Paul, my ESHO of the TTMGR is that the list is more extensive than we can possibly imagine, yet things evidently happen anyway so the obvious conclusion is that not everything will go wrong.

No pain, no gain - no guts, no glory - etc.

]]> By: Leon Brooks http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-740 Leon Brooks Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:29:42 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-740 If it helps, I met a girl on the train in Sydney who uses mutt - & is stunningly blonde/beautiful to the point where judgements based on appearances would be utterly, utterly wrong. Your own pragmatic approach to things could, I think, lead numbskulls to assume that because the comm is simple, the whole idea must be simple. Anyone with the wits to watch for 5 or 10 first would not be so easily fooled. If it helps, I met a girl on the train in Sydney who uses mutt - & is stunningly blonde/beautiful to the point where judgements based on appearances would be utterly, utterly wrong.

Your own pragmatic approach to things could, I think, lead numbskulls to assume that because the comm is simple, the whole idea must be simple. Anyone with the wits to watch for 5 or 10 first would not be so easily fooled.

]]> By: greebo http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-739 greebo Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:16:34 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-739 Hi Paul, a few people have brought that point up, and it's funny because it is really a side note to the whole piece :) Please don't feel inhibited by this possibility, there are always things that can go wrong in conversation, this isn't the top of the list. Just to make clear as well, I think a hostile "I have a boyfriend (you sleaze)!" approach is not appropriate, and would think that most women wouldn't do this really agressively. I and others I've chatted to might mention a partner as part of the discussion both because our partners are a huge part of our lives and because it just ensures that nothing untoward is assumed. It is annoying that this can be necessary, but that is unfortunately where we are at. This latter approach is not nasty or uncomfortable (except for cases where the attitude is nefarious :) ). Hi Paul, a few people have brought that point up, and it’s funny because it is really a side note to the whole piece :) Please don’t feel inhibited by this possibility, there are always things that can go wrong in conversation, this isn’t the top of the list.

Just to make clear as well, I think a hostile “I have a boyfriend (you sleaze)!” approach is not appropriate, and would think that most women wouldn’t do this really agressively. I and others I’ve chatted to might mention a partner as part of the discussion both because our partners are a huge part of our lives and because it just ensures that nothing untoward is assumed. It is annoying that this can be necessary, but that is unfortunately where we are at. This latter approach is not nasty or uncomfortable (except for cases where the attitude is nefarious :) ).

]]> By: Paul "TBBle" Hampson http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-738 Paul "TBBle" Hampson Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:34:08 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-738 "Finally, guys that are offended by this are being touchy." Wow, now my usual fear of approaching people I don't know at LCA (and anywhere else) without a particularly compelling technical reason has been ramped up a notch. I've not personally experienced this before, but now it's in my head that the first reaction I might get from a member of the opposite sex is "I assume you're being led around by your hormones". This adds to my long mental list of things that might go wrong in conversation with strangers. I've probably got the wrong mental image out of this, but I'm picturing someone interjecting before I've gotten my larynx moving with "Just before you start, I've got a partner. You may take this opportunity to walk away if that interferes with your nefarious intentions towards me." or similar. (I a longer comment, but I think my browser ate it before I submitted it... -_-) “Finally, guys that are offended by this are being touchy.”

Wow, now my usual fear of approaching people I don’t know at LCA (and anywhere else) without a particularly compelling technical reason has been ramped up a notch.

I’ve not personally experienced this before, but now it’s in my head that the first reaction I might get from a member of the opposite sex is “I assume you’re being led around by your hormones”. This adds to my long mental list of things that might go wrong in conversation with strangers.

I’ve probably got the wrong mental image out of this, but I’m picturing someone interjecting before I’ve gotten my larynx moving with “Just before you start, I’ve got a partner. You may take this opportunity to walk away if that interferes with your nefarious intentions towards me.” or similar.

(I a longer comment, but I think my browser ate it before I submitted it… -_-)

]]> By: Russell Coker http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-737 Russell Coker Mon, 11 Feb 2008 01:04:12 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-737 No, the above is not all that I get from your blog post, merely all that I'm going to write in a public comment. For the benefit of random people reading this. Pia and I get along well when we meet IRL. We are discussing this issue via private mail. No, the above is not all that I get from your blog post, merely all that I’m going to write in a public comment.

For the benefit of random people reading this. Pia and I get along well when we meet IRL. We are discussing this issue via private mail.

]]> By: greebo http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-735 greebo Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:16:35 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-735 Hi Russell, if your comment above is all you can get from my blog post, then unfortunately you've missed the point again. I hope you can get something from this over time. The reddit comments are in some cases interesting, and a lot of the time disturbing and representative of some of the issues. Finally, guys that are offended by this are being touchy. It is just clarifying the terms of engagement in communication to clearly ensure there isn't any misunderstanding. I think that in some cases it is indeed meant to get rid of an unwanted discussion, but sometimes it is quite innocent too. Again you are generalising. Hi Russell, if your comment above is all you can get from my blog post, then unfortunately you’ve missed the point again. I hope you can get something from this over time.

The reddit comments are in some cases interesting, and a lot of the time disturbing and representative of some of the issues.

Finally, guys that are offended by this are being touchy. It is just clarifying the terms of engagement in communication to clearly ensure there isn’t any misunderstanding. I think that in some cases it is indeed meant to get rid of an unwanted discussion, but sometimes it is quite innocent too. Again you are generalising.

]]> By: Russell Coker http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-734 Russell Coker Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:39:56 +0000 http://pipka.org/blog/2008/02/11/another-obstacle-for-women-in-the-it-industry/#comment-734 The Lenovo guy describes one problem dealing with a woman in a bit of detail, but later in his post notes that he had other issues. the thing to note is that his post wasn't about those things it was about doing Thinkpad marketting. As for whether the "I've got a BF response" is offensive, the comments on my blog and on reddit about reactions to that really say it all. A comment on my blog from a sales guy about how to manage women who react that way (and possibly get laid) demonstrates that the guys you probably don't want to talk to will not be put off. The Lenovo guy describes one problem dealing with a woman in a bit of detail, but later in his post notes that he had other issues. the thing to note is that his post wasn’t about those things it was about doing Thinkpad marketting.

As for whether the “I’ve got a BF response” is offensive, the comments on my blog and on reddit about reactions to that really say it all.

A comment on my blog from a sales guy about how to manage women who react that way (and possibly get laid) demonstrates that the guys you probably don’t want to talk to will not be put off.

]]>